ava's blog

re: what does the indie web need right now?

Via James' post, I found out that xandra has asked:

"what does the indie web need the most right now? if that’s kinda hard to answer, to phrase it in another way: if you could snap your fingers and add one of these to the #indieweb, which do you think would have the biggest positive impact?"

Examples to choose from in the poll were:

I have some thoughts about those options, and more. Lots of this needs nuance, so bear with me.

Easier ways to make websites

In theory, this sounds awesome and is very welcoming and ready to accommodate almost everyone, which is always a plus. However, there are already very easy ways to make websites - think of something like Carrd, Squarespace, or Strawpage. Why do they or don't they count to the Indieweb is something that maybe deserves a discussion as well. Does it have to be reasonably small? Free? By a single developer? Does it have to advertise the Indieweb or be specifically for it?

Another thing I see is that simplification of online presence design is sort of a puzzle piece of how social media is the way it is; lots more puzzle pieces aside from this one obviously, but with ease of use, presets, theme pickers, defaults etc. always comes a sort of homogenization of the look. I assume that many people just don't want to put that much effort into their online presentation and it's another reason why social media was adopted so well, so if we somehow got more people into the Indieweb making easy-to-create websites, there would for sure be a rather dominant default look emerging because of an increase in people who do not want to bother with design and leave it mostly as is. Which is fair, they are used to that already.

This doesn't have to be bad, but it makes me wonder: Do we prioritize attracting more people and getting them off social media, or remaining a space where website crafting is a high priority, where our creative website expression is kind of what sets us apart from the rest? Even YouTubers make videos now scrolling through Neocities and Nekoweb and exploring websites, and it's worth talking about how we intend to preserve this unique look and culture while keeping ease of access in mind. Right now, the focus on website expression and a bit of an entry hurdle in learning some coding keeps the community more focused on this part of it and makes sure you are at least a bit invested or committed. Not to mention that this got people into coding who otherwise wouldn't have bothered, and learning to code instead of using presets/drag&drop is empowering you to take your stuff elsewhere if your easy-site provider goes down.

Sharing information & outreach

This is very important! I myself only got to Neocities because of a Tumblr post. I think the issue is that it needs people who are still on big social media sites and who have a sort of reach there, not just shouting into the void. Understandably, many here have left or severely reduced their presence, so there's pressure between staying on something you don't support vs. letting people know of something they'd possibly love to participate in, and it can feel hypocritical. It's a necessary evil I guess, especially because I only know of one person who is doing some intense outreach on all kinds of social media via groups and other things that unfortunately has extremely vile personal views and values that are, in my view, incompatible with the kind of community the Indieweb tries to foster and consists of.

On the other hand, I also wonder how many truly would enjoy the Indieweb. We are here and enjoy it and want to build it, so it's easy for us to have the assumption that we a) need to grow and b) somewhat have to save people on social media and lead them somewhere else (even if it is silly seeing that typed out, in the end, that's what it is).

Do we really need growth, or have we just become used to the messaging that everything needs to become big and interconnected? Why? Would there be an easy way to track it? Would we notice an increase if it was smaller, more insular communities here and there?

I think the common feeling we have to "save" some people on social media is somewhat misguided and that many people actually enjoy social media or at least, the pros/cons analysis for them is still positive. They possibly don't care who owns it, they probably don't care about their data, and many of them have gotten good at ignoring the bad parts or tailoring their content to their needs. If you present them with an alternative where they have to do more, there is less direct interaction, they can't keep their follows and followers, there's no algorithm to train that picks for them, it's bad on mobile and they have to restart from scratch, it's extremely unattractive. Even if they didn't start out with having these needs, years on social media have created the expectation and need for these things. I am not bothered by lacking any of these, but I am somewhat sympathetic to those who are still attached to having these features for now.

Other thoughts

Unfortunately, where and how this question was posed already displays some of the issues of the Indieweb for any outsider that is on big social media and considers switching. This wasn't posted on a personal website.

Why? Making a poll on a website is possible. It's obviously because of ease of use, visibility and the ability to directly respond below. You understandably want as many people as possible to see and vote and participate by commenting to have an active discussion. That's something a personal website is less suited to do. This accidentally and unintentionally puts a big con forward, when we should somewhat act as a role model with these things if we want people to see that switching is viable.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I am certainly not the arbiter of what the Indieweb is or isn't, but I personally don't consider Mastodon instances to be included in the Indieweb; adjacent, for sure, as you have more control over your data in a way and escape big socials and can POSSE. But in the end, it will always remain a Twitter clone that still embodies the worst of social media and is not a personal website. Most do not selfhost their instance, and are also reliant on the whim of a random webmaster.

Having these discussions there and not via blog posts that people respond to via their own blog posts (just as one option/example) kind of emphasizes to me: For many things people take for granted online, even the people who say personal websites are in many ways superior have to go to their version of social media to do it. It's a bit of a meh look that one of the biggest Indieweb personalities (that I think does an amazing job!) with her own Bearblog and website is not sharing this discussion on them, but on social media instead, limiting its reach to those users. At least POSSE was an option1. And that leads me back to what I said above - what's the point of going here if people are also resorting to Twitter but with different look, but without the numbers and archive built up over years?

I guess my conclusion and opinion is that the Indieweb needs even more people willing to lead and model the core values. In my view, it's okay the Indieweb grows organically, stays smaller, doesn't work for everyone and cannot accommodate everyone, because that means there is a distinct culture, specific goals and limitations that also make it unattractive to get the techbro-treatment squeezing money out of it. The people who are interested in alternatives will find it, and lots of people recommend Bearblog, 32bit Cafe, Neocities and more in comments where people ask for alternatives, and that should continue. Some features people are used to are just not feasible without recreating social media and its issues (that are not only cultural, but also financial and legal) and personal websites cannot make up for them well. Despite that, we should be acting in ways that underline, not undermine, personal websites and blogs if we want people here and be a good example of how it can work without a feed.

edit

Just wanted to say that xandra reached out to me via email and clarified some things, and I did as well. This is of course not meant to be a purity test or judgemental towards microblogging/fediverse users as not true IndieWeb users or somewhat undermining its values just by having an account. As I said, I am not the arbiter of that and you all belong here. What I misunderstood as a missed opportunity to reach out to more of the IndieWeb and do so via personal websites, was simply intentionally asking a specific audience on another platform. :)

Reply via email
Published 20 Jul, 2025

  1. It was POSSEble! ;)↩

#2025 #response